Juan Viejo2

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Posts by Juan Viejo2

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  20

  The 144,000 Belief - What Will Happen To It?

  by mentallyfree31 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you think will happen to the 144,000 belief as the years progress?

  will the wts convert that to a "figurative" number and leave it open-ended?

  or will they come up with another date and insist that anybody after that date should not partake?.

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  Juan Viejo2

  "It is to be regretted that some ran ahead of Jehovah's Heavenly Organization and perhaps said more than they should about a literal number going to Heaven." However, long before 1914, the Holy Spirit was instructing the Faithful and Discreet Slave, pointing forward to this being a figurative, rather than a literal number. When we examine the scriptures, it is evident that...

  Quandry, I think you are on to something. Likewise, Sir has a good followup:

  I still say they'll go back to Russell's idea of 2 heavenly classes, a group of literally 144,000 "kings & priests", and a "little flock" of other anointed ones with the "heavenly hope". And of course the 3rd group, the "other sheep" with the "earthly hope"...

  This will allow everyone to decide, based on their on conscience, whether they feel they have the heavenly hope or not, but whether they will be of the 144K or not will be decided when they get there.

  But think for a moment: Now you have an unlimited heavenly hope and an unlimited earthly hope. Everyone who's been good enough to get to heaven will find room there - and an appropriate job waiting for them when they get there.

  Down on earth, we will now have room for the people of Sodom, all the babies drowned in the flood, everyone who died without hearing the Gospel, and a few "bad guys" like Ham, Esau, Delilah, and Judas that just happened to be the poor bastards chosen to get the short end of the historic stick.

  We can all watch as Jezebel, Nimrod, Herod, Caiphas, and Cain will just appear briefly after the resurrection, be judged, and then go poof! when judged and found guilty.

  Without being tied to 1935, or a particular number like 144,000, there will also be room in either heaven or earth for all of the early Christians who DIDN'T get thrown to the lions, crucified, or used as living candles to light up the road to Rome during Nero's time. Maybe there will also be some room for all those truly good and devout Catholics, sincere and dedicated protestants that made the Reformation possible, and all those poor Jews who were forced to become Christians during the Inquisition, who faithfully served God with a good heart and dedication - but they lost out because they just didn't happen to have a Kingdom Hall in their town at the time so that they could belong to the "true" Christian religion of JWs.

  Makes you think about all of the possibilities, doesn't it?
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  20

  The 144,000 Belief - What Will Happen To It?

  by mentallyfree31 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what do you think will happen to the 144,000 belief as the years progress?

  will the wts convert that to a "figurative" number and leave it open-ended?

  or will they come up with another date and insist that anybody after that date should not partake?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Juan Viejo2

  At some point over the next decade or two, they will have to address the issue of the 144,000. I'm sure that they will have to admit that it is a figurative number, which is how it is presented in Revelations.

  12 is one of the perfect numbers, like 7 and 10. 12 tribes, 12 months, 12 apostles, etc.

  1000 is another multiple of a perfect number 10X10X10 = 1000

  12 x 1000 = 12,000 a multiple of two perfect numbers

  12 x 12,000 = 144,000 a multiple of 3 perfect numbers.

  From the description of the 144,000, it would seem that the writer is trying to say that it was a huge gathering, but not unlimited, with representatives from all the tribes of Israel, God's chosen nation. The whole thing is figurative.

  The issue of the value of 144K has long been questioned. Since several hundred thousands of early Christians were massacred by the Romans for 300 years, and then all of the free-thinkers and heretics of the times of the Catholic Inquisitions - easily were in the thousands. The new DVD tries to include men like Luther, Zvingli, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Newton, and Calvin in amongst the "true followers of Christianity" (questionable on many levels), then you have to include their followers and people like the Anabaptists and Hugenots.

  There was absolutely no Biblical support for 1935 being the cutoff date for the chosing of the Anointed - and there really isn't any for the hard number of 144,000. Plus the 144,000 were all supposed to be male virgins and the children of Israel (Jewish).

  I really think that we will see some sort of revivalist or reformation movement in the WT sometime in the future.
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  730

  Through a Darkened Pane

  by compound complex in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  my frequent walks these last few years about the neighborhood so familiar to me would ordinarily be construed a pleasant enough non-event.

  a little mild exercise - taken in small doses to keep the joints operating properly - and a keen eye peeled for the ever-changing face of nature have rendered the daily promenade a suitable diversion.

  until recently.

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  Juan Viejo2

  Somewhat better link to Syl's article is

  http://ex-jw.com/remembering-raymond-franz

  Be sure to watch the video in the sidebar.
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  25

  In Remembrance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by snowbird in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  my thoughts on ray franz.

  living down here in the backwoods of alabama, we were privy to very little of what was going on in wt world.

  most of us never heard about the shake-up at headquarters during the 80's.

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  Juan Viejo2

  Somewhat better link to Syl's article is

  http://ex-jw.com/remembering-raymond-franz

  Be sure to watch the video in the sidebar.
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  202

  DVD "JW's Faith In Action, part 1 Out of Darkness" Omits! Omits! Omits!

  by Wasanelder Once in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've been watching the new dvd and it is a bull fest about russell.

  i haven't even gotten half way and they already excluded one very important bit of information.

  you'll recall that russell "lost" his faith and "turning away from church creeds and searching for truth, russell examined some leading oriental religions, only to find these unsatisfying".

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  Juan Viejo2

  I managed to get part one, but not the second part. Can anyone PM me a new link to part 2?

  Thanks...
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  202

  DVD "JW's Faith In Action, part 1 Out of Darkness" Omits! Omits! Omits!

  by Wasanelder Once in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've been watching the new dvd and it is a bull fest about russell.

  i haven't even gotten half way and they already excluded one very important bit of information.

  you'll recall that russell "lost" his faith and "turning away from church creeds and searching for truth, russell examined some leading oriental religions, only to find these unsatisfying".

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  Juan Viejo2

  Sorry, Titus. Did not get the link. Please forward to contact@ex-jw.com. I'll try to figure out why existing link doesn't work. Thanks in advance
• 
  202

  DVD "JW's Faith In Action, part 1 Out of Darkness" Omits! Omits! Omits!

  by Wasanelder Once in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've been watching the new dvd and it is a bull fest about russell.

  i haven't even gotten half way and they already excluded one very important bit of information.

  you'll recall that russell "lost" his faith and "turning away from church creeds and searching for truth, russell examined some leading oriental religions, only to find these unsatisfying".

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  Juan Viejo2

  Titus, whenever you have time and nothing better to do - link me up please!

  BTW - what uniform are you wearing? Yugo? Argentine? You look very handsome in a militaristic way, by the way...
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  14

  Any news releases on Ray Franz yet?

  by tenyearsafter in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have been doing google searches on ray's passing and have not seen anything other than what has been posted on the ex-jw bulletin boards.

  i thought i read a post by barbara andersen talking about an ap release to be sent out.

  has anyone heard anything more...it would be a shame for ray's passing to go unnoticed outside of these forums..

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  Juan Viejo2

  I think that it is interesting that John Wooden, former coach of the UCLA basketball team, died the same week as Ray.

  Many years ago, when I was working in Hollywood, CA as a telephone installer, I had a chance to meet Mr. Wooden at one of the local TV studios. I was there to repair a phone cable. He was there waiting to go on to a weekly sports show about UCLA basketball. This was in the days when Lew Alcindor was playing center for UCLA (Lewis Alcindor became Kareem Abdul Jabbar).

  Mr. Wooden was softspoken and friendly, never putting on airs like Bobby Knight or Jerry Tarkanian, whom I had also met. We sat there in canvas chairs waiting to be called to our respective jobs. I guess my breath must have been bad after a long day of work and sipping coffee and apparently Wooden noticed it. Instead of saying, "you need to brush or gargle," he simply looked at me and said, "Here, let me offer you some gum." That's all he said. I can't remember whether it was Juicy Fruit or Spearmint. I thanked him and his answer was, "You are very welcome, young man."

  Due to some technical problem, neither one of us could go to our respective studios, so we were forced to continue to wait and make small talk. He asked me how long it took to learn how to be a telephone man. I was flabbergasted by his even asking such a thing - I know it was just his way of being courteous and making small talk. After I spent about 5 minutes telling him my history, I asked him how he became such a good coach.

  "I show up for practice and demand that my players do the same. If they miss a practice, they don't play. I make sure that they know the rules and that they play by those rules. They have to remember that its just a game, but if they are going to play it they must dedicate themselves to it as I have. It's all about practice. Practice until everything is second nature. If you have a good practice, you should have a good game."

  When I watch videos of Ray Franz, he speaks with that same soft, but assertive manner. He is not bombastic or forceful in his manner, but you pay attention and want him to say more than he does. He presents himself as an observer of events, even though he was in the thick of things. He does not demand anything of anyone.

  Even before I ever saw photos or videos of Ray Franz, I imagined him speaking in the same manner as John Wooden. Go to YouTube and see if you can find some videos of John Wooden speaking and sharing his philosophy. I think you will see the similarities.

  God rest both of their souls. They were a credit to our human race.
• 
  8

  Remembering Ray...Six Screens Conference Call, Barbara Anderson and Marilyn Zweifel. June 5th.. 7 P.M E.S.T.

  by koolaid-man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the six screens of the watchtower conference call will be focusing on the impact ray franz has had on the lives of so many people.

  we all miss ray, a man who stood courageously on the "front lines of truth".

  special guest barbara anderson and marilyn zweifel of the 1-800why1914 j.w.

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  Juan Viejo2

  I'll be there listening in from Salem Oregon...
• 
  14

  Any news releases on Ray Franz yet?

  by tenyearsafter in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have been doing google searches on ray's passing and have not seen anything other than what has been posted on the ex-jw bulletin boards.

  i thought i read a post by barbara andersen talking about an ap release to be sent out.

  has anyone heard anything more...it would be a shame for ray's passing to go unnoticed outside of these forums..

  1. 
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  3. 
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  Juan Viejo2

  I sent emails to the editors of NY Times, Los Angeles Times, The Atlanta Journal, and to Time magazine. I included links to the original Time magazine article and stressed the importance of Ray to all of us now outside of the Borg.

  After all, they all put up obits for Freddy when he passed 18 years ago.

  I'll let everyone know if I get any responses...